We dive into a conversation about embracing future life phases today on ThimbleberryU. Amy and Jag discuss the importance of planning for both financial and non-financial aspects of our future. Amy emphasizes the significance of visualizing and imagining the life we want to lead, pointing out that financial planning isn't just about money—it's about making our desired future a reality. This involves considering future expenses and the lifestyle we aspire to maintain.
Amy highlights the challenges people face when trying to envision their future, including fear of the unknown and the difficulty of imagining life changes. She shares personal stories to illustrate these challenges, such as her fear of financial independence after college (this contrasts with Jag's approach to college). We explore how different life stages, like becoming parents or transitioning to retirement, come with their own sets of fears and uncertainties.
The conversation then shifts to the importance of being clear about what we want in later life stages to avoid being unprepared financially. Amy stresses the value of having specific goals to motivate saving and planning for the future. We discuss how changing priorities or goals is natural and not problematic as long as there's a willingness to adapt and adjust financial plans accordingly.
Amy offers strategies for looking ahead and connecting with our future selves, such as setting aside time for contemplation, getting in touch with our values, and recognizing how today's choices impact our future. She shares personal anecdotes about preparing to enjoy activities with future grandchildren and the importance of taking care of oneself to maintain health and vitality in later years.
Finally, we touch on the concept of living in limbo and the stress it causes due to a perceived lack of control. Amy suggests finding at least one aspect of a situation that can be influenced or controlled as a way to navigate forward. And as a bonus, you'll hear a couple of Shel Silverstein references.
Jag: Welcome back to ThimbleberryU, I am Jon Jag Gay. Amy Walls joins me as always from Thimbleberry Financial. And Amy, we're going to have a conversation today, right?
Amy Walls:
Yes, we are. I'm so excited about it. We are talking about embracing a future phase of life.
Jag:
Okay.
Amy Walls:
And I'm sure our listeners just like your reaction are like, “Wow, that's exciting.” I actually am super jazzed about this topic because it's all about what do you want to have happen? And that's what my team does.
We are all about helping people live the life they want to live financially. And that also means we have to deal with the non-financial things. So, visualizing and imagining is such a big part of that.
Jag:
And I'm somebody who hates change, so you're going to probably have to hold my hand and walk me through this a little bit, but I am intrigued to say the least. So, where do we start?
Amy Walls:
Jag, let's talk about why I think this topic's important. Obviously I just got kind of excited about that. We're talking about it.
Jag:
Clearly.
Amy Walls:
But as a financial advisor, we have to work with clients to kind of map out what their projected future expenses are going to be. And sitting here where we both are in life, that might be hard or it might be easy, depends on our personality, what we have going on in life, lots of different factors.
For a financial plan to be accurate and account for appropriate things, like what you want to do for the rest of your life, we need to have an idea of that and be able to tie some costs back to it.
Jag:
Makes sense.
Amy Walls:
And so, that's why this is important. And I think there's a lot of reasons that when people do struggle with this that they do. I'm obviously not a psychologist, so I think some of what I see that makes it hard to imagine is really just based on observation and experience.
Jag:
Sure. We're not psychologists, we just play them on a podcast.
Amy Walls:
Absolutely. Jag, one of the first things that I think can cause this to be hard is fear. And I think fear comes in a couple different fashions. Fear of the unknown. You said you don't like change.
Jag:
Yeah.
Amy Walls:
Yeah.
Jag:
That's where all my anxiety comes from, is fear of the unknown and not knowing what's going to happen. Absolutely.
Amy Walls:
Yeah. So, let me tell you a story of my senior year in college. I had the only undergraduate degree that required a thesis at my university. And that was big enough. And my senior year, I must have cried almost every day for a couple of months because I was sure I would never be able to financially support myself.
Jag:
Really?
Amy Walls:
I was terrified of it. The guy I was dating at the time actually offered to buy me a cardboard box.
Jag:
Wow.
Amy Walls:
He did in a joking way. But I was absolutely terrified. I paid my bills in college myself, but I couldn't imagine that leap to being in real adulthood and having income come in, in a significant enough way to cover all those bills myself.
Jag:
I'm laughing because you and I are opposite ends of the spectrum here. I probably cried at the end of my senior year because I didn't want to go out into the real world, but I was financially reckless in college.
I was swiping my credit card at the bar three, four nights a week and “I'll figure it out.” And that credit card debt crippled me for decades after college. But you were worried about how am I going to pay my bills? I was worried about how am I going to survive not hanging out with my friends at the bar three nights a week?
Amy Walls:
You're right. Very different ends of the spectrum. And I think this is why this is such a important topic. We're all at different points of time in our life, right?
Jag:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Amy Walls:
I have children. You don't.
Jag:
Right.
Amy Walls:
For some people with kids, there's the transition into having kids. “Okay, we're going to do that. I'm scared of that. It's hard to imagine what this is going to look like. I can't visualize this, so I'm definitely not applying dollars to it.”
Then there's your kids being little and imagining they're going to become teenagers and be independent and be busy and doing all these things. What's that going to look like that?
That, and we're projecting in terms of expenses, but before that the idea is we have to embrace the fact that our kids aren't going to need us. They don't need us in the way … and we're fearful of are they going to be moody teenagers? Are they going to want to be around me at all?
Jag:
Is that even a question? Aren't all teenagers moody?
Amy Walls:
I'm going to knock on wood on that one.
Jag:
Okay. Say no more.
Amy Walls:
And then them leaving the house. And being empty nesters.
And then for just about everybody, it's this approach into there's a point in time where I don't need to work or I'm not going to work, whether it's financial independence or retirement. That's a switch.
And I think it's a switch to those few years before where you're really starting to look forward to retirement and really knowing you're going to have to be thinking about it more, for people that this is hard for, that approach into retirement I see becomes difficult.
Jag:
I've heard that the switch from working to retirement, or like you said, being financially independent is the biggest change of all because you spend your whole life post crying in college working and working and working up to it, and then all of a sudden, it's like you get off that treadmill and your financial picture is completely different.
It's not about working toward this goal, it's kind of like, okay, it's maintaining the lifestyle and sitting on top of your finances without just logging in a desk 40 hours a week.
Amy Walls:
Absolutely. There's so much that goes into it. It is a very hard transition. And a lot of that work has to be done before someone transitions. But the biggest shock to retirees (so I'm so glad you brought this up), is actually where their social connections come from.
Jag:
Yes.
Amy Walls:
A lot of people like to complain about their coworkers, but then when they retire, they realize, “Oh, that's where most of my interaction was coming from.” And now they're lonely and depressed.
Jag:
Yeah. But it's that old adage about you spend more time during the day with your coworkers than your actual family.
Amy Walls:
Absolutely. So, I'm so glad you brought up that change to retirement because it is a honeymoon period for the first year. Dr. Ken Dychtwald actually has done a lot of research on this. And there's five stages of retirement, the first year dubbed the honeymoon period where people tend to golf and do the things they really wanted to do in excess. And then by a year they're like, “Okay.”
Jag:
Now what?
Amy Walls:
But they also do start to feel some loneliness in that period. And then there's moving into more regular retirement. “Okay, I've golfed enough, I've done X enough, I've lounged around my backyard, whatever it is that we were excited about, and how am I going to find more meaning and more pattern and in this time?”
Jag:
That’s hard.
Amy Walls:
Yeah. And then this transition into end of life. And through all of this, what people have to accept is change is happening, we're maturing, and that does mean we're moving closer to that end-of-life phase. So, I think that's a big part of the fear.
I think there's also fear though of being ridiculed.
Jag:
How so?
Amy Walls:
Looking silly. I felt silly telling you about my fear of not being able to support myself and living in a cardboard box. Sometimes it's fear of expressing that and that you'll be laughed at. But I think there's also fear of saying what's really in your mind and admitting who you are and what you want to have happen.
Jag:
It's that external fear of what others are going to think, but there's the internal fear of coming to terms with your own reality, I guess.
Amy Walls:
Absolutely. I think both very much so is what I see. Now, there's other things I think that get in the way of people being able to focus on this. And I bet that you and I have both experienced this, lack of time and space.
Jag:
Okay. Yeah.
Amy Walls:
An inability to be able to give it thought because there's so many other things happening around you and in you on a daily basis that you don't have the mental capacity. It's almost decision fatigue.
Jag:
Yeah.
Amy Walls:
In order to sit down and contemplate. And I can say that some of my best times in thinking through these things are when I've gone to the beach alone. And there's oftentimes that when I do this, I'll spend a couple days just working on a project and then I'll go out to the beach, and I can sit and think and write. That's a big way that I process this.
But there's also times that there's been so much going on that even after a couple days of downtime on my own, I'm still not mentally in a place to be able to look ahead.
Jag:
By the way, a short-term fix for if you don't have access to a beach or can't spend a day at the beach, I find the shower is a place of solitude.
But I mean, I've heard so many people say this too. You're laughing, but you're also nodding because sometimes that five-minute shower turns into 15 because you're spaced out and you're just kind of like, “I'm here alone. The water's running. I'm kind of solving all of my life's problems right now. Or at least trying to.”
Amy Walls:
Perhaps that's why my teenager spends an hour in the shower.
Jag:
That teenager needs to start contributing to the water bill, I think.
Amy Walls:
Absolutely. No, that's a great example. I mean these can be found anywhere. It's sometimes sitting in the backyard or wherever it is. But I think having some space around you and being in a place where there's less pressure really allows this to happen.
Jag:
Water pressure aside.
Amy Walls:
Yeah. One last thing I'd say is denial. A little bit, we've addressed this in fear, but denial about aging, about getting older.
Jag:
I’m laughing really hard right now because I'm thinking about how I've started to exercise more because my body has needed it.
And I had told you offline, my wife and I took my best friend and his wife and daughter to Disney World last month. And the realization of our bodies that, “Oh, I can't just eat park food for a week. I need a salad. I need a bowl with chicken and rice. I just can't do burgers and fries, or my body is going to just revolt.” So, the denial of aging, yes. Denial's more than just a river in Egypt for sure.
Amy Walls:
I love that because with my skiing I find the same thing. Taking my food, I feel so much better than if I end up eating up at the mountain. Another one, and this is sensitive. Being in a bad relationship.
Jag:
Sure.
Amy Walls:
Can really, I think, impact this because being in that relationship, it's hard to imagine the future when you are unhappy.
Jag:
In the present.
Amy Walls:
In the present. Yes.
Jag:
I hear you, Amy. Before I met my wife, I was in a very tumultuous up and down relationship and it was one of those things that's the old cliche, you don't realize sometimes you're in a bad relationship until you're out of it. Or until you get into a good relationship you look back and say, “Huh, I really wasn't happy at that point in my life.” And that just affects all areas of your life at that point.
Amy Walls:
Absolutely. And I think we'll talk about this here in a little bit, at least, especially now that I brought it up, is there is this concept of your future self. And who you are now has to connect to that future self and almost make that future self more of you now, in order to make this easier.
Jag:
And I think some of that Amy, is what's important to you, what's a priority for you as you look 5, 10, 20, however many years ahead is where do I want to be? Who do I want to be, et cetera. And then as you're saying, sort of integrating that into who you are now.
Amy Walls:
Absolutely.
Jag:
Alright, so this begs the obvious question. What are the consequences of not being clear about what you want to happen in later phases in your life?
Amy Walls:
Well, Jag, it's fairly simple. From a financial standpoint, it's being unprepared. And there are people who say, “Hey, I'll make do with what I have financially.” And that might work out well and it might not.
Jag:
That was 21-year-old me for sure.
Amy Walls:
Fair enough. And like I said, when we started this, financial planning to me is all about people getting what they want out of life. It's not just accumulating more, it's growing this money and building this money for a purpose. The vision of your life. And choices cost money. And the earlier we account for those costs, the more likely someone is to be prepared.
Jag:
That's something we've talked about in previous episodes, Amy, is this nebulous idea of, “Hey, I need to save for retirement. Hey, I need to save for my future.” If you don't have something specific tied to that, the motivation might not be there.
I need to save for my future versus I need to save for my second vacation home. Or I need to save for my boat or I need to save so I can put my kids through college. Whatever it is, figuring out what that priority is and what's important to you then provides the motivation. I know we've definitely hit that on previous episodes.
Amy Walls:
Absolutely. It is so important to have a specific goal in mind so that the new pair of shoes or the extra vacation now aren't taking precedent. And that's not to say it's not all about tomorrow. It's about balance.
Jag:
I'll give you an example. So, I've mentioned countless times in a hundred episodes of this podcast is my wife has really helped me break some bad financial habits in terms of saving and being more responsible.
But the flip side of that is I've also gotten her to splurge on some things where she's sometimes more conservative. There was a time that shortly after we were living together and married, she always wanted a pair of diamond earrings. She'd never had a pair of diamond earrings. She's always wanted a pair of diamond earrings.
Well, I saved for gosh, it must have been six months, money away, money away, money away. So that we could get a pair of diamond earrings that she really liked, and she went with me. And we picked them out and I bought them for her.
And it was a great exercise to sort of meet in the middle so that she could splurge on something or together, I guess financially in our financial work it’s splurge. But also it gave me motivation to save. I have this goal; I'm saving for this specific purpose so I can make this purchase.
Amy Walls:
And Jag, something that you just touched on is for yourself, you might not have been good at doing that. But you could do it for her. And you could do it for the two of you.
Jag:
Love you, honey.
Amy Walls:
And so, that I think is a trick. Some people are good at doing things for themselves. Some people need to have it be someone else.
Jag:
I like that. So, Amy, what if we've had our priorities and our plans, we've saved up with these goals in mind, but then something changes maybe our priorities or our goals change.
Amy Walls:
Jag, it's not a problem. Life is life. Life it's about getting what you want. And as we progress in life, we are going to have different priorities. And the earlier we start working towards what we think we want at that point, the better we will be positioned to make adjustments.
So, if priorities change and the costs change along the way, well as a financial advisor, I'm going to work with my clients to adapt and adjust. And the bottom line is some ideas planned for are better than no ideas planned for.
Jag:
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So, I'm going to ask you for some concrete examples here, Amy. What are some ways you've seen people work through all this stuff and be able to look ahead?
Amy Walls:
I think first getting away or setting aside time to do this as a regular part of their life. We were talking about exercising. Both of us have been exercising a lot recently.
One of the things I started tracking was taking some time, multiple times a week to just be calm. Almost like meditation, but as a break in my schedule, so I'm not leaping from work straight to picking kids up, to dinner, blah, blah, blah.
Jag:
Can I make a parallel here? Because I think this is worth mentioning. We've talked about budgeting in previous episodes and making your savings a line item in your budget as opposed to whatever's left over. To me, this is the exact same thing. Setting aside that time to think about this stuff as opposed to if I have time at the end of the day, which inevitably you never will.
Amy Walls:
I love that you brought that up. I think you're exactly right. So, fitting this in, whether it's weekly or monthly or my husband and I try to give each other … and I say try here. We try to schedule it ahead of time, but some long weekends away from the family, some time away on our own to just be.
Next, I'd say it's getting in touch with future self. So, in our society, people tend to place more value on immediate rewards and benefits than on a future benefit. And so, first we don't know what we don't know. And when you know, you know.
I think these are two great expressions because understanding and just internalizing that as a society we put this focus, which means most of us are going to put the focus on this immediate reward rather than the future benefit.
Well, now our listeners know. And so, now they can try to overcome that. And I think that's the key is understanding you need to overcome that because that is natural now allows you to work on it.
Along with that it's, as we've talked about, getting in touch with yourself, but it's goals and values. We keep talking about goals and priorities, but all of that stems from values. What is most important to you? And tying that together, the person you are today, and who you want to be in the future. So that it's essentially one and the same because oftentimes our values don't change drastically.
Jag:
Priorities might but values usually stay fairly consistent. Got it.
Amy Walls:
Exactly. And then a third around this topic, I'd say recognizing how your choices today impact that view of your future self. I think I've shared with you before; I tend to remember that I absolutely look forward to boogie boarding and skiing with my grandkids.
Jag:
Yes, you have. Yep.
Amy Walls:
Yeah. And I want my kids to expect and plan for that. That we will be doing these things. There is no doubt. And so, I make a point, even though it sounds super silly with my seven-year-old and my 16-year-old who I tell they can't have kids until they're 30, that this is something we will be doing. We talk about it.
So, when I am skiing with my eldest child, almost every time we ski together, they ask me to fix their gloves and their coat. They're 16. I kind of love that they ask me to do this. At the same time, it's silly. It's silly. My seven-year-old handles it on his own.
And so, I consistently joke that — kind of joke I should say, that when I bring them and their kids skiing and they're doing this for their kids, they're going to be responsible for doing it for me.
Jag:
Now they can be the sandwich generation.
Amy Walls:
Absolutely. And they're going to be helping me put on my gloves and adjusting my coat around my gloves so that if I fall, snow doesn't get in there.
So, yeah, my eldest absolutely and my youngest, they're very clear these are things we're going to be doing to be doing. I also lift weights and I do yoga on a regular basis and those things help me feel good today.
But I'm also very aware that they are things that are going to allow me to be strong enough and flexible enough to be boogie boarding and skiing with my grandkids in 20 or 30 years.
Jag:
My wife has an aunt and uncle that are in their late 80s and they have talked about going on a cruise with us later this year. And we look at each other and say, “We need to take care of ourselves now in our 40s, so that we can go on a cruise when we're 85 and 90.” So, your point is certainly well taken.
Amy Walls:
Yeah. Up at the mountain when I am skiing and if I get up there, midweek doesn't happen very often, a couple times a season, but it's usually when I see the older women up there and I'm internally cheering every time I see one of them. Just like, “You are awesome. You rock. I am going to be you.”
Jag:
Yes, absolutely. Amy, as we start to wrap up, any final points or strategies you want to share?
Amy Walls:
I think the last thing I'd say Jag, it ties to what we talked about earlier, but it's getting honest about change. It ties a bit to the goals and values. What comes to mind here is living in limbo. I find that not only for myself but for others, living in limbo seems to be one of the most difficult things or places people can be in life.
Jag:
So stressful.
Amy Walls:
So stressful. And it's because it feels like there is no control and no influence on an outcome. You are dependent on everyone else's decisions or what they're going to do. So, this is where my experience is that people often spiral because of that lack of control and lack of influence.
Jag:
It kind of feeds on itself.
Amy Walls:
Absolutely. And it becomes demoralizing and just defeatist in being able to make a decision. But often when we break it down, when I hear people in this place, there's at least one thing that can be influenced or controlled if we approach the question from a different angle.
Jag:
You can only eat an elephant one bite at a time, right?
Amy Walls:
Well, Shel Silverstein, my favorite poem of little Melinda Mae who ate a monstrous whale. She said she would, she said she could. So, she started right in at the tail.
Jag:
I love that we have a Shel Silverstein reference in this podcast. That's amazing.
Amy Walls:
So, I think being able to approach that from another angle, being able to say, “Hey, this is the place I'm at,” and whether you can do it yourself or you can be open enough to someone else to say, “What is the thing I'm missing? What is the thing I can control or influence? What can I own in this? So that I can find a path to navigate forward.”
Jag:
Start those small habits and then build bigger in that regard. Alright. Well, Amy, before the sidewalk ends, if any of our listeners want to reach out to you at Thimbleberry Financial, how do they best find you?
Amy Walls:
They can give us a call at (503) 610-6510 or they can look us up online at thimbleberryfinancial.com. And if anybody does, I'm going to ask that they include some Shel Silverstein reference in whatever they say or write. And there will be something fun that happens as a result.
[Music Playing]
Jag:
Not a requirement, but bonus points awarded for sure.
Amy Walls:
Absolutely.
Jag:
This was fun, Amy. We'll talk again in a couple weeks.
Amy Walls:
Sounds great, Jag.
Jag:
Securities offered through registered representatives of Cambridge Investment Research, Inc, a broker dealer, a member of FINRA, SIPC, advisory services through Cambridge Investment Research Advisors, Inc, a registered investment advisor. Cambridge and Thimbleberry Financial are not affiliated.
Discussions in this show should not be construed as specific recommendations or investment advice. Always consult with your investment professional before making important investment decisions.
Securities offered through registered representatives of Cambridge Investment Research, Inc, a broker dealer, a member of FINRA, SIPC, advisory services through Cambridge Investment Research Advisors, Inc, a registered investment advisor. Cambridge and Thimbleberry Financial are not affiliated.